Monon attacks: hate crimes?

Dateline: Fri 24 Jun 2011

The latest to fall victim on the Monon Trail is Adam Bowman, 34, who was blind-sided from the back as he walked his dog, thrown to the ground and beaten. The attack took place Thursday about 6 a.m. near 61st Street.

Thanks to the Indianapolis Star and cops reporter Vic Ryckaert for this information.

According to Ryckaer's story, which is in this morning's newspaper, two men came up behind Bowman and knocked him down. He was treated at St. Vincent Hospital for his injuries.

Is anyone beginning to see a pattern here?

Gary Bravard, 58, was shot 8 times on the Monon June 16 as he walked home from work about 4:30 p.m.; he was just south of 86th Street when two teens approached him and tried to rob him. Devon Moore, 16, has been charged in the crime with attempted murder, attempted robbery and carrying a gun without a permit.

Bravard is a well-known Indianapolis party planner. Just Google him and you'll see how talented and respected he is in his field.

Other victims whose crimes have received media attention include Dave Clark, the former owner of Meridian Heights Cleaners at 49th and Pennsylvania, who was riding his bike in July of 2010 on the Monon near 54th Street.

Clark, age 60 at the time of the assault, was attacked at 2:40 p.m. by three people who knocked him down and beat him in the mouth. He required 42 stitches, which shows it must have been an especially vicious crime, as was the shooting of Bravard. And I'm certainly not minimizing what happened to Mr. Bowman.

Finally, in 2006, Darrell Arthur was badly beaten by four young men on the Monon while riding his bike. He was thrown off to the side of the road in an effort to hide his body, and he was hospitalized for some time.

Arthur was for years an activist on behalf of people with AIDS.

So here is the concern: are these thugs who go wilding on the Monon deliberately targeting older guys? Are they picking victims who are perhaps more vulnerable in appearance, not jocks, as opposed to some younger trailer users? Finally, are they targeting men who they think are gay? It seems apparent to me the attackers are behaving with hatred towards pure strangers.

In Bravard's case, we know the motive was robbery. The Star has reported that Devon Moore needed $80 to pay off a debt.

Still, it seems worth looking at the possibility that the Monon is increasingly unsafe if you fit a certain profile: white, male, traveling alone, older than your 20s.

Is there an element of hate crime here? As two friends pointed out, the city does not track hate crimes, so who knows?

Ruth Hayes, president of the Nora Northside Community Council, and Public Safety Director Frank Straub have both been quoted in the Star saying how safe the Monon is overall. That is a matter of opinion. In fact, in 2010, according to the Star, there were several crimes on the trail: a strong-arm robbery on June 1, assaults on June 14 and June 17, and armed robberies on Aug. 12 and Nov. 18.

It would be interesting to profile the victims in all of those cases, and see if they fit in with what we know about the four male victims mentioned here. Is there a pattern? All criimes are hateful, of course. But a hate crime is defined legally as one where a perpetrator targets a victim because of membership in a social group, race, class, age, etc..

Maybe it's time the police looked into this aspect. Perhaps it's time they set up a sting operation on the Monon.

CORRECTION: Mr. Bravard is 58 years old. I am told by someone who knows him that the Star has his age wrong when they report it at 56. It is corrected in this post to 58.


indykjsharp [unverified] said:

I live in a nearby neighborhood in the middle of all this nastiness, and crime has dramatically increased here. In our neighborhood, we've had five break-ins of various types (cars, houses) and thefts. On Memorial Day weekend, thieves smashed the window of our guest's brand new truck and stole items out of it. They then proceeded to another neighborhood a couple blocks away and committed the same crime. A neighbor had a truck left on blocks, and several neighbors have had lawn equipment stolen. It's the wild, wild west here as far as I'm concerned.

2011-06-24 10:19:11

ruthholl [Member] said:

Good googamooga! I love your area. That really throws me for a loop.
Do you have Crime Watch? I know when we lived in Johnson Woods, it was common for kids to have bikes stolen and lawnmowers to be stolen from resident called it "paying the neighborhood tax." Of course, it was mostly petty stuff, altho now I think of it, there was one home burglary. I know the cops told us that a dog was the best protection...

2011-06-24 10:54:37

Gary Welsh [unverified] said:

Good question, Ruth. Same thought had entered my mind in these particular well-publicized cases; however, I think there have been a number of attacks on the Monon that have not been reported much in the media that may have been more random.

2011-06-24 11:24:26

Pasquale [unverified] said:

And the IndyStar website this morning has ANOTHER report, which apparently occurred on Monday:

A 60-year-old man told police a teen-ager took a swing at him while he rode his bike on the Monon Trail near Fall Creek.

The incident, the third in eight days on the Monon, happened Monday at about 4:15 p.m. at 3500 North on the trail, according to an Indianapolis Metropolitan police report.
Ronald Covey, Indianapolis, was not injured.

Covey said he was riding north when one youth in a group a of four boys, between the ages of 12 and 15, swung at him. Covey said he was hit on his left arm, stopped his bike and “confronted” the boys, according to the report

2011-06-24 13:15:13

indykjsharp [unverified] said:

Now imagine what it's like to live in Detroit, or Camden, N.J. where they fired half the police force.

Crime... our infrastructure is falling apart... our daily paper is all but finished... but golly gee, we'll get a little lipstick on that pig before the Super Bowl! It's like whitening your rotten teeth around here, the way they're resurfacing roads over rotten water mains and covering up explosions downtown.

If anyone can still do real journalism in this town, they may want to figure out where the money's going.

2011-06-24 13:39:37

indykjsharp [unverified] said:

I just finished reading "Germinal," and the struggles are exactly the same as they were with the coal miners in 19th century northern France. The haves vs. the have nots. The owning classes versus the working classes. Unions portrayed as evil. Then the haves wonder why the horde comes knocking at their doors with blood in their eyes. We are a nation of morons.

2011-06-24 13:50:24

indykjsharp [unverified] said:

Sorry to keep going on and on, but everyone needs to read the article in yesterday's NYTimes about the real state of things in Indiana:

The most telling statement in the article: "One in three Hoosiers qualifies as low-income now, compared with one in four a decade earlier."

2011-06-24 14:04:29

VladtheImpaler [unverified] said:

Sorry, but you cannot charge a black urban predator with a hate crime. Only the other way around is acceptable. Move along now.

2011-06-24 15:24:45

Whitebeard [unverified] said:

indykjsharp - couldn't agree more with you. Indianapolis is all about putting lipstick on pigs. Also strongly agree with your "haves and have nots" comparison. Sooner or later, the serfs get pissed.

As to the subject of the Monon, Not sure if these criminals are targeting certain groups, but good reason to think it's a matter of: (1). Young people not having money; (2). Having too much time on their hands; (3). Seeing older folks as being more vulnerable; (4) Wanting drugs.

I wouldn't walk along that trail if I had a dog as big as a brontosaurus.

2011-06-24 15:33:16

ruthholl [Member] said:

Pasquale, thank you for the update. I just called up the story and see that the updated update has our police chief calling for beefed-up patrols on the trail. Well, finally....
You almost have to wonder if attacking these guys is not part of some initiation or ??? Or maybe just plain meanness? Maybe if we caught a few, we'd get a better understanding of the motivation.

2011-06-24 15:33:41

hendy [Member] said:

I moved to Bloomington, where life is rosy.

Oh, wait....

We're now more divisive than ever. There is no such thing as non-partisan politics left. It's us against them. Who is us? Whoever you're near is the answer. Who is them? That rich guy on the kewl bike. Got money for sure.

Two decades ago, I followed this guy through BRIP one evening as he checked every door on the Av. If it opened, he went for the center console, then the glovebox, then under the seats. I was on my cellphone with 911, doing a play-by-play. He entered at least a half-dozen cars while I sat back watching him. The IPD came in, surrounded him, but he bolted. The two officers, both overweight, were no match for him, and his nearly full backpack of stolen goodies.

Is it getting worse? I have no idea if the guy I followed had a pistol or not, and I wasn't going to find out. But cold-blooded murder and armed robbery are just a symptom of a bigger problem: the effects of the economy both on economic pressures of youth but also of government. Everybody has to have their slice today. I read about the library wanting a piece of the county option tax. The problem is deep and getting deeper. Time to reign in the new aristocracy and shake a few coins to pay for what's needed.

2011-06-24 15:46:47

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Vlad: if you try real hard, I think you can pull your head from your backside.

When I saw "hate crimes" in the title, I immediately went in another direction. Not sure I want to open this can of worms...oh what the hell:

More than one of those victims is/are gay.

Just sayin'.

When the Monon Trail was devised, the neighbors fought it tooth-and-nail. Ruth Hayes and Nora Community Council correctly predicted it'd be a draw within a few years.

Lately, thieves have become more bold. I walk/bike the trail regularly. I cannot recall the last time I saw a police officer on the trail. And the parking lots are open season for window-breaking-and-running-with-goodies. It happens along Fall Creek Boulevard too, in public parking areas. It's alleged we have Park Police--so valuable that the City tried to claim they're "real" police officers recently. I rarely see them.

The Monon is an urban treasure. All such treasures need a pretty consistent SOP review, to make sure their protections and safeguards are properly in place. Clearly, the Monon needs some updating. Mostly in the security department.

The problem is, the Parks Department is cut to the bone. And the remaining brass are arrogant and ignorant--recall that giveaway of Monon trees/space for the Kroger Center a couple of years ago? Questioning citizens were sent packing, much the same as Eugene White does to anyone who dares to question the King.

Those who fought to get the Monon here, are rarely consulted about its current condition or its future.

Attention, Messrs. Ballard and Crew: pay attention to the elders. They know how to safeguard assets like the Monon.

And, since day once, this middle-aged walker has not gone on the trail alone. Afraid? Not necessarily. Cautious.

Because broad daylight is no longer a sufficient deterrent. That's not new news, folks. And it's not confined to the Monon.

2011-06-24 17:03:37

Parent [unverified] said:

It seems to me these incidents are likely gang initiations. And because these kids are cowards, they are targeting people they think a) have money and b) are easy to overcome. As far as crime in this area, it's been here for years. Our home was broken into 5 years ago and the police made it clear that the perps were targeting an area where they know people work hard for what they have. Thus, they're not home during the day and they have nice stuff.

For defense, we got an alarm system installed and a dog. A Rottweiler. And I'm thinking she'd love to take a walk down the Monon.

As the Pike Township resident said after a neighbor was attacked in her home ... "We're watching you, too!"

2011-06-24 18:59:31

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Gang initiations have been around for 15 years. Or more.

They're just getting more bold--and expanding.

IN this economy, a huge majority of homes are unoccupied during the day--sitting ducks for these gang wannabes. And they've proven that a large number of their corps, are not deterred by your being home during the day. As I said, they're bold.

This rash of violence is best-handled with a smorgasbord of remedies: dogs, cameras, police and--more difficult--an improved economy. ANd any beat cop will tell you, the one policing fact that can't be ignored: more detectives and investigators can track down these young thieves. They're usually only smart enough to pull off the caper--their fencing and follow-through are often sophomorish. Some gumshoe work can track down more of these little asshats. I'm betting we have fewer investigators/detectives than we've ever had--or at least, that we don't have enough of them. Their work is hard, tedious and expensive (for taxpayers).

But peace of mind has no pricetag. Come on., city leaders--step up.

2011-06-25 05:55:38

VladtheImpaler [unverified] said:

"Vlad: if you try real hard, I think you can pull your head from your backside.

When I saw "hate crimes" in the title, I immediately went in another direction. Not sure I want to open this can of worms...oh what the hell:

More than one of those victims is/are gay."

--TTT, Vlad suggests you pull your own self-admiring, swelled head out of your own ass, if you can. Vlad recognizes the point being made originally that many of the victims appear to be gay.

2011-06-25 09:31:45

indykjsharp [unverified] said:

And all perps are "black urban predators," Vlad? Which is what I thing T3 was referring to.

Oh, and you may want to "just move along," but I think the evidence points to a need to understand the effects of grossly uneven stratification of wealth and the haves pulling into their fortresses with better everythings than the have nots, who make their affluence possible.

2011-06-25 12:10:22

Jason [unverified] said:

Just these perps indykjsharp.

The perennial argument of how hard economic times cause an increase in crime is interesting. FWIW, the people least affected by the economy are the unemployable. There's a big difference between being unemployed and being unemployable, and our superminority that commit the supermajority of the crimes in this city wouldn't take a job if it was handed to them on a silver platter. Poverty is certainly a stress factor for crime, but not all poor neighborhoods are high-crime and not all high-crime neighborhoods are poor. While FBI crime stats have their inherent flaws, their correlative data would more support Vlad's argument than anything else so I'll leave that alone.

I know there were grumbles when the Monon was proposed to run from 12th Street-ish up through 96th Street. I know the issue of crime was brought up by people in the know and largely dismissed. Visibility issues were discussed, as cities like Denver and Seattle have urban trails with very long lines of sight. In a way the dismissive ones were right in that urban renewal pushed a lot of the scofflaw element further out into the suburbs, so some places are safer than others but nowhere is truly safe. I'm actually surprised there aren't more problems in the Marott Woods area myself.

As a city, rich and poor alike, we oppose truth in sentencing laws. Large parts of our culture have acclimated to the logic that we can pick and choose which laws we want to follow on a daily basis, which and to what extent largely dependent on personal ideology. At some point we took a turn toward Calvinism, too, where poor, faceless, miscreant youth should be held to a lower standard and we should blame somebody else for their actions in some weird twist of fatalism. But in the end, we get what we pay for, eh?

2011-06-25 14:18:03

indykjsharp [unverified] said:

These are the kinds of "Conversations" we should have been having all along in The Indianapolis Star, but we'll never have them.

To Jason's point of choosing which laws we want to follow, it amazes me to hear the folks who harp on immigrants for "breaking the law" who then drive around 465 at 80 mph.

2011-06-25 14:36:19

Jason [unverified] said:

Not sure I would follow my argument that far indykjsharp. By that logic if I ride my bike without a bell on it I can't criticize either.

Imagine people driving 80 mph around 465 and then complaining that you can't stop them for speeding, THAT is the immigration debate, lol.

Perhaps a better choice of words would be picking and choosing what laws we want enforced, in addition to the ones we want to follow?

2011-06-25 17:14:43

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Nah, Vlad, I'm real comfortable. I just marvel at your insensitivity, hence the head/ass comment. KJSharp correctly nailed the reason I made the remark, which I rarely do, but your initial comment was ripe for such nonsense. More urban myth and horse shit.

I think I'll let it stand.

2011-06-25 18:04:43

John Doe [unverified] said:

These robberies are just good old American human greed, nothing more, nothing less. Most of these kids should be sitting at home, watching TV which I can assure you, despite their cradle to now upbringing on welfare, they have. They also have cell phones, computers, and video game systems.

The problem is, it is never enough. The lazy poor demand the same thing the lower part of the middle class has. The lower part of the middle class wants the same things the upper part of the middle class has.

This is why socialism is so popular in this country: Make everyone equal, so everyone has the same lifestyle. You can't be too rich and you can't be too poor...there, now everything is fair.

The problem with this kind of world is that it rewards doing just the minimum. Why bust your rear for 20 years if 50%+ of your income needs to be taken in the form of various taxes, all because the lower class isn't happy with their subsidized apartment, subsidized childcare, subsidized healthcare, subsidized food vouchers, etc. etc.. They want more, and if they can't get it by electing people who will change the law to make the theft legal, they and/or their older offspring will get what they want another way: Stealing and robbing is one way, dealing drugs is another.

Now we are seeing mobs of black kids gather in large groups and shoplift from stores all at the same time. More than likely, most are from single parent households on some sort of "assistance." The latest victim was Walgreens in Chicago. This came after Nordstroms in Chicago has a similar attack.

I feel bad for the Nora area. As more apartment complexes take Section 8 rental vouchers, that is going to bring some crime to the area. Not saying everyone, or their kids, who live on Section 8 is a criminal, it is just that lower income usually means higher crime rates. So we have more and more Section 8 types whose moral code is such that robbery and stealing are OK. They rationalize their actions, just like folks here are trying to rationalize it. The fact is, if I can be a frugal person, so can they. Keep your butt in your Section 8 apartment, watching TV, reading a book, hanging out with friends, whatever. Life doesn't owe anyone money for movies, or cruising in a car, or a video game system, etc.. Giving poor people money for shelter, food, water, and healthcare should be enough. Of course they want more, and one way to get that is to shoot people and take what isn't yours.

Eventually these punks are going to run into the wrong person, and we are going to have a case where a 50 year old white guy shoots and kills a group of black teens who attacked him. Then everyone will be up in arms, questioning the need for so many bullets, saying the victim should have just rolled over and did what he was told, etc..

2011-06-25 19:13:02

Robert Knilands [unverified] said:

User was banned for obnoxious trolling and the comment was removed. --Admin

2011-06-25 20:01:52

mollie [unverified] said:

I am glad someone is addressing this, I was appauled when the black ministers were complaining that Mayor of Indianapolis had offended the black community by some remark (that was not relevant at all) while blacks are terriozing our white gay community on the monon...where is the out rage??? If the victims had been black and the offenders were white, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be marching on the monon...These thugs should be charged with hate crimes, because that is what it is and was.. HATE

2011-06-25 20:15:53

Robert Knilands [unverified] said:

User was banned for obnoxious trolling and the comment was removed. --Admin

2011-06-25 21:15:39

Pete [unverified] said:

It's good to see that 19th Century thinking is alive and well in Central Indiana. Why, poverty has nothing at all to do with structural inequality in the US, it's according to John Doe because of the moral failings of the "lazy" poor. Tell you what, sport, try for once to walk in the shoes of the people you're bagging on. Wait..wait..let me guess, you're one of those people who think that you're a principled, and dare I say it, moral man with good Christian values, no?

Jason, could you cite your evidence to back up your statement that the "unemployable" wouldn't take ANY job that was offered. Provide links to the studies backing this up. Or does the anecdote count instead.

God, Hoosiers sometimes are too fucking stupid for words. Glad I left that cesspool.

2011-06-25 22:07:13

Jason [unverified] said:

I'm going on firsthand experience Pete, which I'm going out on a limb and saying is a bit out of your reach. Unemployable doesn't mean unemployed, it doesn't mean underemployed, it doesn't mean "victim-of-society," it means UNEMPLOYABLE. It means an individual with NO job skills. Can't read, can barely write their name, absolutely no interpersonal skills and absolutely no interest on bettering themselves or partaking in any type of manual labor. There are a lot more of them out there than you think, but then they haven't released the numbers from the Ivory Tower yet, so you probably wouldn't believe it since you seem to think sitting on your futon sipping on your import is going to teach you something.

I guess we could give them jobs fishing recyclables out of the local landfill, but then in your mind that wouldn't be FAIR, would it? Heaven forbid we ask for accountability, and heaven forbid we take the victims' rights into account ahead of the suspects. I abhor when people make excuses for those commit these atrocious acts and completely ignore how belittling it is to the victims, as if it's THEIR fault because they belong to some demographic that YOU have deemed untouchable. Shame on you.

It's called life, Pete. Pick up the phone once in a while when it calls, you'll be surprised what you'll pick up on. Don't worry, I was an uber-economic progressive once like yourself. There is hope.

2011-06-26 03:07:28

Johnathan Doe [unverified] said:

"Wait..wait..let me guess, you're one of those people who think that you're a principled, and dare I say it, moral man with good Christian values, no?"

While some mock "Christian values," the fact is, the world would be a better place if everyone, including those who are believers, would follow the values that Christianity, and even Islam, lay out. Of course humans are human, and they will have sex and reproduce, damn the consequences.

The vast majority of Americans though could never be happy with a roof over their head, food on the table, water to drink, free education, and basic healthcare. No, it isn't right to demand the poor in our society to just be happy they are living 100x better than many people in India, China, and Africa. The poor in America deserve so much more. It just isn't fair that they never get to take a vacation, can't afford their tobacco sticks, their crack, their meth, cable and satellite TV, HDTVs, smart phones, etc.. America is so cruel to only provide the basics to poor people, via legalized theft from others. To demand they be content is just wrong...oh the horror!!

We should be understanding when it comes to "flash robs." We should be understanding when it comes to a drug dealer needing to gun down another drug dealer. We should be understanding when the poor feel they need to attack a complete stranger...BY GOD, they deserve that strangers I-Pod.

Keep watering thug and ghetto culture when it comes to some of the "poor." Don't allow any criticism, don't demand heavy handed law and order when these folks can't just be happy with the basics. You will end up with cities like Detroit all over the country. Thankfully people are waking up. As more and more people become victims of the hip-hop/gangsta/punk/thug culture, they are arming themselves, moving to less populated areas to get away from that culture, etc.. Eventually there will be no where to move, and that is when all hell likely breaks loose. What may come, I don't know. It is likely at least a decade away, maybe longer.

2011-06-26 04:30:37

hendy [Member] said:

Ah, civility and the rule of law. Maybe it will work. Maybe we'll slip further into anarchy. Maybe those damn Demos will win and we'll get taxed to death and those queers will get marriage licenses. Maybe those Tea Partying GOPers will win and we'll start another few wars and get those ragheads a new wardrobe.

Maybe the Libertarians will just provision us all with semi-automatics and say: have at it.

We can mock Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, all we want. It's a free country, so to speak.

My take: easy targets are the low-hanging fruit of street crime. Gay, str8, doesn't matter. Threats and bullets are the symptoms of urban problems, and more deeply, the widening gulf between rich and poor, some now permanently rich and a new aristocracy, some poor, and a new permanent underclass.

Social justice? Har.

2011-06-26 10:43:48

Pete [unverified] said:

So, Jason, when asked to cite specific studies/evidence to back up your claim that the "unemployable" just won't accept a job, you respond with an anecdote peppered with personal insults. Oh, wait...your anecdotes carry the weight of unimpeachable, universal truth, right? However, I guess if so many of these "unemployable" people exist in your mind, completely unwilling to live a better life, the only real solution is to just throw them away, no? As to your other snide shot, I've lived plenty of life pal, and I've seen way to many of the "screw you, I've got mine" types like yourself to take what you say seriously.

John Doe, it's interesting that you reduce all societal issues down to black people, non-Christians, and non-chaste people. If you have children, I feel sorry that they have you as a father.

2011-06-26 11:34:23

Robert Knilands [unverified] said:

User was banned for obnoxious trolling and the comment was removed. --Admin

2011-06-26 11:37:20

GaryMillRat [unverified] said:

I think it is a reflection of the brazen crime in the area,not so much hate. Residences from 54-49th on each side of Central have had brazen attacks broad daylight. They don't get coverage, unless we pay $1 to a free lancer to give the Star neighborhood watch updates. But I digress. Not sure of the orientation of the victims, but 2 of them I know are not frail looking, weak, etc.It will only get worse I fear..and nothing done until it is a young, pretty white mother with her babes in a jogging stroller who gets mugged.

2011-06-26 11:55:45

Pete [unverified] said:

Robert, I'm afraid John Doe deserved that comment. He very clearly has issues with African-Americans that go way above and beyond the alleged involvement of a few of them in muggings on a nature trail.

2011-06-26 12:10:48

GaryMillRat [unverified] said:

Ruth, why did you bring sexual orientation into the conversation?

2011-06-26 15:26:29

ruthholl [Member] said:

I brought the sexual orientation up after talking to a couple friends mid-week. We were talking about the attacks on the Monon, and who was being targeted. It was a friend who has some ACLU ties who speculated, "Hate crimes?" It made me wonder, too, which I admit, I was already doing...
I am NOT saying that the men attacked were gay men; how would I know that? I am just wondering if they fit a certain profile that incites hatred in some people -- white males, not terribly athletic but using a venue that has a lot of athletes on it. It seems that the vigorous athletes are safe, but perhaps the walkers and occasional bike riders are more vulnerable.
It is all speculation on my part.
My friend pointed out Indy does not track hate crimes -- so how are we to know?
Just something to think about.

2011-06-26 17:56:25

Robert Knilands [unverified] said:

User was banned for obnoxious trolling and the comment was removed. --Admin

2011-06-26 18:19:00

Write Man [Member] said:

I think the concept of haves vs. have nots (class war), and the potential ramifications, is a subject well worth considering...check out the incidences of "wildings" in Chicago.

100 years ago the City Beautiful movement sought to make "outer" urban neighborhoods more tolerable for those who lived in them, but also to help ensure the safety of the wealthy who passed through them on their way to their mansions.

Not to get all Henny Penny here, but it's hard not to think that as the "great divergence" in incomes increases (read Timothy Noah's great series at Slate on income disparity) there won't be some sort of blowback...

2011-06-26 21:22:06

Nicolas [unverified] said:

If reports are accurate, starting July 1 it will be legal to carry a gun while on the Monon. If so, that will likely have far more effect than the sporadic presence of a cop. Carrying a gun is not mandatory, so liberals may still offer themselves as sacrificial lambs.

2011-06-26 22:22:12

Robert Knilands [unverified] said:

User was banned for obnoxious trolling and the comment was removed. --Admin

2011-06-27 01:00:40

Jason [unverified] said:

Pete, you're either unwilling or unable to compute what unemployable means. Which is irrelevant because the concept is an accepted issue with, well, everybody else. You use profanity and hate and then cry foul when people call you out on it. To top it all off you're trying (poorly) to use absolutes within a sociological framework, when sociology as a science is so soft it's considered art in many circles. I get the impression one of these days you may get to where you're going and pull back the curtain, but you're not going to find the wizard there. You're going to find your own tail.

I do find it peculiar how the frequency of these truly unmotivated attacks are being morphed from horrible crimes fueled by hatred into a misguided outcry for social justice. A misunderstood proletariat resorting to a bit of the old ultraviolence should just be expected every now and again, after all if someone is succeeding it's obviously at somebody else's expense, right?

Does that change the fact that there needs to be personal accountability in our society regardless of what social stereotype you fit into? Of course not. Social justice is a fuzzy concept. 25 years ago the injustice was that we were handing out soft sentences during the crack epidemic, and today the injustice is that we're handing our harsh sentences for crack crimes. Despite the fact that rich people are NOT as rich as they used to be, and that more people are accumulating more wealth than ever before, this idea of the disappearing middle class still gets trumped out on occasion.

We like to bemoan corporate America on one hand but refuse to acknowledge that people in 3rd world countries are eating and drinking clean water because of technology developed by Capitalism. We complain that people don't pay enough in taxes but refuse to pay a penny more than we have to (that would be foolish, right?) And heaven forbid one of OUR jobs gets sent to one of THEM, as if they don't need it more than we do. At heart it reminds me of the anarchists who say we're all slaves because we have to pay property taxes.

2011-06-27 04:04:59

Pete [unverified] said:


Where to begin...

1. You've invented this unemployed/unemployable dichotomy as a means for justifying your own lack of empathy. Why, you don't have to care about people in poverty without a job, because they *choose* that, eh what?

2. Widely accepted STATISTICS have shown that wealth is increasingly being concentrated with the top 1 percent in this country. STATISTICS show that in the last 30 years the average wage of the middle and lower classes dropped while the wealthiest Americans saw their incomes boom. For as much as you claim that I don't live in reality, perhaps you should direct that ire at yourself.

3. Explain again why jail sentences for powder cocaine should be substantially lesser than rock cocaine when it's the exact same substance. Of course, thanks to the private prison industry we're developing, no one is really asking just why exactly the US has the highest percentage per capita of its population in prison in the industrialized world

4. The lack of clean water is actually one of the largest problems the third world faces. Even Bush knew that. So let's get off of the "the third world should be so grateful to us" self-back slapping, m'kay?

5. Not sure why you think outsourcing is a good thing. If there's no jobs left in America, where exactly are people supposed to get the wages needed to go to the mall to prop up the GDP because we deliberately eliminated our manufacturing base three decades ago.

As for profanity, you're still a douchebag who thinks that the shit that falls out of his mouth is universal truth while simultaneously justifying that selfishness is a virtue.

Hoosiers still are too fucking stupid for words. Exhibit A....Jason.

2011-06-27 06:44:45

indykjsharp [unverified] said:

In Germinal, the owning class bemoaned its falling prosperity. The coal mine owners lived in better houses, with better food, better health care and safety, than the coal miners enslaved to make their profits for them. The owners noted that sometimes their women had to patch their dresses, when all the while the workers toiled naked and barefoot because of the heat and because they couldn't afford clothes.

Now we have a very similar situation. The owning classes live in gated or isolated communities and can employ extra security; they can afford healthy food and safe living conditions. Even their medicines will be better, thanks to last weeks Supreme Court ruling about generics.

It's an us vs. them society, and until policy makers and business owners recognize that we're only as well off as the least among us, we'll continue down this path of increasing lawlessness. If you're hungry and without resources, and you can't find a job, your only recourse is to beg for it or steal it. Adherents to the Virtue of Selfishness need to wake up and see that you can only take those ideals so far before you have a system that no longer works for anyone.

2011-06-27 08:05:03

Jason [unverified] said:

Once again you're chasing your tail.

1) Generally speaking, when people start telling me what I really think or feel, I have to throw in the towel. Gosh Pete, you know me better than I do, yet I'M the self-righteous one? I guess I'll take my ball and go home.

2) Our wealthiest president? George Washington. Have you forgotten that JP Morgan bailed out the federal government all by himself during the gold crisis, or that John Rockefeller was worth more than the 10 wealthiest present-day Americans put together? Or that there are MORE millionaires today than there were 20 years ago? Of course there's still poor people and you will NEVER change that. There's no use in talking about wealth redistribution as a functional concept because I reserve my science-fiction reading to early Richard Matheson.

3) That's YOUR argument Pete. Social justifiers used to say crack sentences were racist because they were too light (even though they were on par with similar offenses), now they're racist because they're too harsh (never mind the factors that go into sentencing guidelines.) You need to reread my post a bit more closely.

4) Okay, so we need to do MORE to provide clean water to 3rd world countries. I daresay they're doing more than you are. Once again you're not providing a tangible argument you're just typing sarcasm.

5) Outsourcing is a good thing because we have it pretty good here in America, much better than anywhere else in the world, and somebody else can feed their entire family with that paycheck, whereas you'll spend it on a new car and an iPhone talking about subverting the dominant paradigm. I mean, we ARE talking about improving the world here, and not just the socially disenfranchised here, right?

As for your rant at the end of your post, pot meet kettle.

I'll take my ball and go home. It's still a hate crime.

2011-06-27 12:12:03

indykjsharp [unverified] said:

"Wealth redistribution" is a loaded phrase, typically employed by those with something to lose, and those who have been co-opted with their propaganda. What those "winners" don't seem to be able to realize is that they ARE losers when society is as lopsided as it has become today and which it has been at various points in history.

Rather than "redistribution," let's talk about sensible regulation and fair taxing, so you don't have the abuses that are occurring (and a repeat of history) and the haves running offshore to do business?

Isn't that a fair discussion? Or is the Rush Limbaugh-Glenn Beck-Palin-Bachmann-blah blah blah line of thinking just too well distributed on our conservative airwaves for anyone to consider a rational economic solution?

Oh, and by the way, the "horde" in Germinal ended up chopping off the head and penis of one of their worst abusers. Hunger and destitution are not pretty.

2011-06-27 13:29:57

Pete [unverified] said:


Outsourcing is not a good thing because Americans lose jobs.

2011-06-27 19:51:07

Comments are closed.


or Register


Syndicate Blog